Podcast
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Dr. Gretchen: Hello, and thank you for tuning in today. This is the very first guest that I have ever had on The MSing Link podcast to discuss a topic that I feel like. Sometimes people don't like to discuss because it feels a little too intimate to share or maybe a little awkward and it's something that I think we need to be talking about and that is accessible clothing and more specifically accessible undergarments like bras and underwear.
Dr. Gretchen: It can be so tricky for people with chronic conditions, including multiple sclerosis, to get dressed in the morning. And especially if that includes bras and underwear that require you to have lots of shoulder and arm mobility and strength and core strength and upper body movements, and it just adds on an extra layer of difficulty.
Dr. Gretchen: But Emma Butler is our guest today, and she has developed a bra that will allow you to make this daily activity feel easier and less cumbersome. And She has such an amazing story, and I can't wait for her to share her bra with all of us on this episode.
[00:01:14] Emma's Bio
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Dr. Gretchen: Emma Butler graduated from Brown University in 2020 and founded an adaptive intimates brand liberare at 22 years old to help her mom with chronic pain get dressed easier. Liberere sells bras and underwear for women who are disabled, have arthritis, or have recently had surgery, offering easy on features like front facing magnet closures on their bras.
Dr. Gretchen: Emma was named Forbes 30 Under 30 in 2024, and Liberere has been featured in Vogue, Good Housekeeping, Oprah Daily, and People Magazine.
Dr. Gretchen: On today's episode, Emma explains what makes the libraire bra accessible and its adaptive features.
Dr. Gretchen: Emma, thank you so much for being here with me today.
Emma: Thank you so much for having me, Gretchen. I'm so excited to be here.
Dr. Gretchen: Of course. I'm really, really excited to dive into our conversation because I feel like, I personally have been looking for adaptive clothing just to talk about on my social media platforms and with my MSing Link members for years. And I haven't really found one that I loved and felt was truly accessible until I found you and your products.
Dr. Gretchen: I'm excited to get into it. But before we do, is it okay if I ask you to I'm going to ask you a question from my interview deck.
Emma: Absolutely.
[00:03:38] What is something you don't mind sharing with other people?
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Dr. Gretchen: Alright, so I'm just going to shuffle. Okay, your question is, What is something you don't mind sharing with other people?
Emma: Something I don't mind sharing. I am always, my whole life is about Liberere, and so I, I share all the intimate details of our, meetings in our bra process, but something a little bit more fun is I used to live in Paris, which is where I developed the bra. And something that I like to share, even when people don't ask me to share, it's all about my favorite restaurants and my favorite croissants, my favorite places to get cheese.
Emma: And so that's a big talking point for me.
Dr. Gretchen: Oh my gosh, I love that. How long did you live in Paris for?
Emma: About four years. So I just moved back.
Dr. Gretchen: What brought you there?
Emma: Well, it was the pandemic around then and I started starting the company and I could run it from anywhere. And I knew that France was the, Paris had the best bra makers and the really great ateliers and studios. And so that, and then also I love Paris.
Emma: Cheese and bread. And then also there's a lot of good resources for fashion founders where United States, it's a lot more tech focused, but in Europe, they love fashion founders.
Dr. Gretchen: Wow, that's so cool. I studied abroad in Paris I went to a college or university that had trimesters, and the only time that you could travel was in the third trimester, and it was only eight weeks long. And when you're traveling, it was only four to six weeks, so I only spent four weeks there, but it was awesome.
Dr. Gretchen: I absolutely loved it.
Emma: still a long time. That's that's a great. Yeah, it's a great city.
[00:05:11] Emma's story
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Dr. Gretchen: Yeah, oh, that's so fun. Okay, so let's dive into it. So can you tell us, I'm assuming most people might not know you or about who you are, and so let's start there. Who are you and what is this thing that you have developed?
Emma: My name is Emma and I am a 26 year old founder. I started, well, I guess my, I've always been an entrepreneur in some way, because my story really starts when I was around 12, when my mom began to live with chronic pain in her hands and her shoulders and just limited hand dexterity, limited shoulder mobility.
Emma: And for the first time, it became a little bit more difficult to do those things. Husky hooks on the back of bras, or put on bras over your head and over your shoulder. And we looked together for a product that was going to be easy on and fashionable, comfortable, supportive. And we couldn't find anything.
Emma: And so that experience really stayed with me. I went to Brown to college and I met other women that had different, were different stages in their life that also had struggled to put on a bra and I thought, there is nothing out there. And so I don't have a long resume of, you know, other jobs and other things, but so right when I was 22 years old, I was committed to starting this bra process, but as you can imagine, it Starting something from scratch is as complex as an adaptive bra where there are hundreds of bra companies and nobody has created a really good easy on bra.
Emma: Took about four years to get this going and hire the best. Best adaptive designers. And so my, who I am is really my, my brand Liberere, my product and the journey that I've been on through Paris and here to get this brought out there.
Dr. Gretchen: Yeah, that is crazy. I think it's so awesome that you saw need that wasn't being fulfilled by all of these other companies. And so you just took it upon yourself to, to do it and create it.
Emma: Yeah, no small task. I'll tell you, I thought I was a little naive going into this and then I realized, man, this is hard.
Dr. Gretchen: Yeah. Oh my gosh. So I have so many questions. I'm trying to decide which question I want to go with first. So before we get into the specifics, can you give us, an example of why this is an adaptive bra and how it's different from other bras.
[00:07:29] Why is this an adaptive bra & how is it different?
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Emma: Yes, the first thing that I was thinking about when doing this bra, there's a lot of pieces between wireless comfort support, but the first thing was, was hooks on bras on the back. First of all, that twisting motion is so hard and the other options like zippers or clunky snaps or even just putting on over your head.
Emma: So the first thing we had to tackle was what is an easy closure that you don't have to wriggle into. That's going to be really dexterity friendly, shoulder mobility friendly. and get on easily. And so we developed this bra that's gonna have this, these five magnetized snaps that come together really easily.
Emma: It's a magnetic glide that brings it together. You've, held it. And so it's people hear magnets, like that's one magnet's not going to hold me. It's a G cup, but really it's a magnetic that make it easy for aligning. And then it's the snap or like the locking system. It's not really a snap that holds you in.
Emma: So that's number one. Fastening system. So no more painful pinching and no more shoulder pain.
[00:08:28] Clasp design & closure
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Dr. Gretchen: I love that. I think that that clasp is for me, probably one of the biggest things because that, especially for a lot of my patients that I work with, even just orthopedic patients who have orthopedic conditions like frozen shoulder or you know, elbow pain, wrist pain, which can happen a lot when you're using mobility aids, reaching around to the back, or even just the act of swiveling the bra around.
Dr. Gretchen: It can be really challenging to do. So having an easy closure is so, so, so important.
Emma: Yes. That was definitely the first thing that we needed to get. Right. And you're absolutely right. Like this bra, one of the best things that I've discovered about this bra was that we, I started with my mom with a chronic illness that she has limited mobility, but it turns out that just like myself included, I'm wearing it right now.
Emma: I will never go back. I just hate putting on bras with hooks and everything. And so whether you're frozen shoulder or shoulder injuries, or just like me, and I'm a busy woman and I got stuff to do, I'm not wasting any more seconds putting on a bra with a hook.
Dr. Gretchen: Yeah, absolutely. are all of the bras a front closure?
Emma: All of the broads are front closure. This bra has a back closure that's just basically, I, just for adjustability and so, just offers four inches of adjustability so that you could get a really good fit and also with weight fluctuations, whether it's medications or just limited movement or, you know, cycle phases or bodies change.
Emma: And so being able to have that custom fit was really important to me.
Dr. Gretchen: That's awesome. So what are some of the other features that make it different?
Emma: well,
[00:09:58] Other features
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Emma: We have these grip loops on there. So one thing that we, we have a team also of amazing women, some disabled women, some non disabled allies. One of our teammates also named Emma, she is a quadriplegic. And so she has a lot of difficulty pinching, turns out a lot of women, not just women who are quadriplegics.
Emma: And so we have these really discreet little loops on the bra so you don't have to pinch to shut the bra. You can just slide your fingers through. So no more pinching. That's one of my favorite pieces. I use it too, just because it's a little easier. We've got wireless. A lot of women have pain and like sensitive nerves. And so we wanted to not have anything that was going to dig or leave red marks. That's the last thing that you want after a long day. And so making sure that it was wireless, which is maybe not super adaptive, but it was something that we wanted to make sure that we could get some lift, some support, no more painful.
Emma: Underwire.
Dr. Gretchen: I love how much thought went into each of these features. And one thing that's common with multiple sclerosis is the MS hug, where it might feel like you have a lot of constriction and tension in your torso. And so adding a tight bra or a pinchy bra on top of that could just make it even worse.
Emma: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Dr. Gretchen: So if you're listening, you probably aren't watching and you can't see what Emma is demonstrating, but we are also recording this and we'll be posting it on YouTube and she's showing what the bra looks like. And so you can see the closure with the magnetic closure in the loops that she's talking about.
Dr. Gretchen: And you can kind of probably hear it too in the background. I have one and put it on. And I did an Instagram reel for it, demonstrating it. And it's so easy to put on just with the clasping with you don't have to use your fingers grip is a huge thing for a lot of the patients that I work with.
Dr. Gretchen: So everything about it. I've just it checks all my boxes.
Emma: I am so glad to hear that. And um, I'm so glad to hear that. But a lot of years in this, so
[00:11:59] Emma's moms involvment
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Dr. Gretchen: so I'm curious, did you have your mom? Try these on. Was she part of your design process?
Emma: Oh, yes. 100%. I live in now in New York or I was in Paris and she's in in New England. And so our whole team or our product team will get on FaceTime with her and she'll try out. We have a few new bras and she was the first prototyper for those as well. She's always like person number one.
Emma: And so, making sure as. bigger than double D cups. It also works is great too. Or like, that's really important, but my mom is always tester number one. And then we have dozens of testers with all different types of mobility and sizes and dexterity and breast shapes that just go through it too.
Emma: Because. You know, my mom has both her hands. And so I want to make sure that it was also for someone that maybe is recovering from stroke or has one arm, they can also put it on. So it has to go through a lot of rounds of testing to make sure it's easy and comfortable.
Dr. Gretchen: Wow, that's crazy. And so, what are the specifics? Are there certain sizes that are available or not available? And, are there different styles? , what do we need to know about that?
[00:13:03] Current Products
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Emma: we have our best seller is called our everyday easy on bra and that ranges from band 34 to 44 cups B to G. And that's a simple one that you have. It's a wireless bra that is a little bit more full coverage. It's got a scoop neck and it's got these, the grip loops and all of those features we were talking about.
Emma: We also have the Liberare bra, which is basically the same thing, but with a lace racer back and it's for smaller cups from A, B and C. And then those are those are our two ones. Now we are just reintroducing, we have new underwear coming and we have two new bras in a few weeks. A more inclusive size range.
Emma: So, those should be coming. I think I got to touch base with our product designer maybe in the next six weeks. and those are going to be in white and blush and this one right now is just in white and black.
Dr. Gretchen: Nice, that's awesome. I'm curious. How did you come up with the name Liberere?
[00:14:00] How the name came about
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Emma: Gosh, well, it's a great question. Once upon a time we were called intimately. And it turns out there were a lot of. Bra company is called intimately and it's hard to get a trademark. So we had to change. And we were thinking about what our mission was and our mission is really to It's to liberate is just to have make sure that our customers have an easy morning and just feel liberated.
Emma: Just get on your bra. It's easy peasy, a little bit of freedom back into your day and a little bit of confidence. And so we looked up liberate in Latin and it's liberare. I think it's supposed to be said liberare. And it's hard to say, but we went with liberare. We liked where we like liberare. So that's it.
Dr. Gretchen: that. Just like the broads, I like how much thought goes into even, even just the name. That's awesome. And you touched a bit on the fact that you're coming out with underwear. Can you explain how that's gonna work?
[00:14:50] Underwear
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Emma: *That's going to be incontinence underwear. And so it was really important for us to make something *that was beautiful, but also leak proof. So it doesn't matter where you're at. A lot of women have leaks and it should be comfortable, dry, and also easy to get on. And so we have these really discreet loops on the side.
Emma: It's just super easy. And so if you have shoulder pain or back pain, or just are sitting most of the day it's easy to still put on. You don't have to bend over and pinch. It's just much easier to put on your underwear like that. So it's don't have any complex snaps or, you know, magnets the way that this broad does.
Emma: It's just like those little details that make going through your day with a little leaks, a little bit more. fun and your confidence.
Dr. Gretchen: That's awesome. you still have to put one line in at a time or is it, does it like hook around to the side or how does that work?
Emma: This incontinence underwear does another underwear that does do that. But I think that we won't get that back in stock for another year. It's a little bit of a longer lead time. But it was side opening underwear with a really cute little lace butt.
Emma: Or, I don't know what the right word is lace behind. That's really sweet. And really easy to get on so you don't have to bend over and put one leg in on each one.
Dr. Gretchen: Gotcha. Nice. That's exciting. And I just want to point out too that Liberere has been featured in Vogue, Good Housekeeping, Oprah Daily, and People Magazine. That is insane. Like what a huge accomplishment. Amen.
[00:16:18] Vogue
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Emma: It has been such a whirlwind last month. We were in Vogue again, we were in Vogue in 2022 when we first launched and now again, and it's been really exciting. And I think that what I am excited about the most is the fact that you know, so many women live with MS or with fibromyalgia or just And the other chronic illness.
Emma: And finally people are recognizing that we can like Vogue, you know, the fashion icon that we can feel beautiful and comfortable and also be featured in Vogue and feel our absolute best. And I think that a lot of the time people, magazines like Vogue have forgotten that actually we can feel amazing and have MS and get dressed easily and have MS or another chronic illness.
Emma: And so that's what's so exciting to me that Folks are just paying attention and giving the light that the space deserves.
Dr. Gretchen: Yeah, I mean, I feel like not too long ago, mobility aid companies have started creating mobility aids that look wonderful, like you want to be walking with your cane because it looks like you and it's fashionable or a rollator or whatnot. And it's about time that accessible and adaptive clothing also can be that way, that you don't think of an accessible bra.
Dr. Gretchen: And think of something that's bulky and gross and no one would actually want to wear and the fact that you guys are in Vogue and these other platforms just really does go to show like these are pretty. They're great and accessible.
Emma: yeah, absolutely. And I think that when you design for with limited dexterity or you design with everybody in mind to design a better product and so, I think that whether it's more fashionable or it's more you know, I love the example of the electric toothbrush, which is originally designed for people with limited mobility or limited dexterity, but electric toothbrushes are just better.
Emma: And so, I like to think about that with the bra, that, you know, yes, this is a great bra, this is great for my mom, who, when that doesn't like hooks, can't, you know, has shoulder pain but this is a bra that my girlfriends wear, that I wear and I don't have any limited hand dexterity right now but I'm wearing it right now, and it's just simple, easy, and classic, and so, I think that that's a good design principle that a lot of people could remember.
Dr. Gretchen: Absolutely. And with multiple sclerosis, as I mentioned earlier, the MS hug is, is 1 of the symptoms that is just that such such a struggle for a lot of people and bras obviously can make that. So it's really important to uh, try to be mindful of your body. I know that this is really important for some people.
Dr. Gretchen: I know that some people feel like, this can be really stressful, for them to do this for a long time. And I think this is really important for you to, symptoms that someone wouldn't at first realize how many things that causes in terms of difficulty in their day to day activities, like getting dressed.
Dr. Gretchen: And so I know this wasn't made specifically for people with MS, but there's so many reasons why this is perfect for the MS community.
Emma: That's one of the things that I was so excited to chat with you and was because we've had so many customers that have written us and said, I have MS. And, you know, I think we, we worked with MS focus a few a little bit ago too, because it's just that it's just interesting how This bra has been able to reach so many different women at different stages in their life at different stages of where they're at in their journey.
Emma: And just, A lot of it all comes down to the same thing, which is just getting dressed easily, independently, and feeling good. And sometimes it's weakness in the hands, sometimes it's weakness in the shoulders. And no matter what, you should just be able to get your bra on and feel good.
Emma: Yeah.
[00:20:04] How this makes daily activities easier
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Dr. Gretchen: I would say the number one goal that my clients are working towards is making their daily activities feel easier. And when you're able to do that with things even just like this adaptable and accessible bra, when you're able to do that, I find that it also reduces, mental fatigue. Like If you're also thinking, okay, now I have to put on my bra and how am I going to do that?
Dr. Gretchen: What's my limitations going to be today? one more thing that you need to make a decision on and it's mentally and physically draining. So yeah, I think this is something that can definitely make daily activities just feel easier and less cumbersome.
Emma: Yeah, absolutely. If I can reduce the stress on somebody's morning, just a little bit so they can focus on getting back to their life, getting back to whatever it is, and just take away those, even if it's 30 seconds of mental fatigue where it's like, what am I going to do? I have to twist. I have to do this.
Emma: I'm a happy founder of this company and just making sure that mornings are less stressful, but you're right. It's also the mental fatigue and it's more, it's also physical stress, but it's that mental fatigue.
Dr. Gretchen: So where can people go to find the bras and the underwear when it's available?
[00:21:13] Where can you find the products?
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Emma: It right now, liberare, liberare. Which is L I B E R A R E dot C O. We couldn't get. com. So we're co, which is the most confusing thing ever, but it's just co is the great place to go. And, and then if you email hello at liberia. co, I'll be answering those emails and with our customer service team to help with fittings, but we're also sold at Victoria secret online.
Emma: And we're also sold just yesterday. We launched with Nordstrom online. And then we have a few more partners coming up, but those are right now the best places. But if you need a one on one questions about your size or anything with needs or or any questions, like I'm looking for a underwire bra or a molded cup bra in this size, just let me know.
Emma: Cause , our team is pretty small and we're happy to bring it right to the product team.
Dr. Gretchen: That's awesome. Well, and I will put that website and the email in the show notes if anyone needs to access that. But congratulations on everything that you've done so far with this launch and just getting so much visibility for this bra that is so clearly needed. I'm so happy that we crossed paths and that I found out about your bra because I know it's already making a huge difference in a lot of people's lives, but hopefully now also more in our MS community will become aware and use it and, you know, find it helpful.
Emma: I am so grateful that we got to meet and thank you for having me today. This has been so great. And I'm always so excited to learn more about the MS community and also how we can work in exactly all of your folks in your communities needs to our next product. So definitely if anyone has any suggestions, do me an email and I'll bring it right to Maddie and, and we'll go right at it.
Dr. Gretchen: I love that. Do you have a vision for Where your company will be in five years or ten years, is the goal to have more designs or different types of products or can you share any of that with us?
Emma: You know what? That's a good question. I think that there are so many different bras and underwears to start with that we want to really build out that the next. While and but then that's just the first step. And so I think that what we always do is everything comes from our customers. So that pink color that we chose the white colors, the color of the underwear, everything has been asked by, by our customers.
Emma: we have this. private group of 500 women that work with us. We also just send out emails to our whole email chain and say, what color do you guys want? And then we have 10, 000 responses and we have to go through each one and choose which one we like. So if people want. Shirts and pants and dresses and or other adaptable accessible things.
Emma: We are right there to make them. But right now it seems like women are like, I got my everyday easy, my everyday bra. Can I have a, can I have this? Can I have this? sports bra? Can I have all these things? And so that's going to be our next tackle for the next little bit. Oh,
Dr. Gretchen: Wow, that's fun. I follow you guys on social media, so I'm excited to just keep following and see as new things come out and everything that you develop.
Emma: thank you. And I'm so excited to just be here today and thank you for asking such thoughtful questions. I'm so excited.
Dr. Gretchen: Of course, thanks so much for being here.
